Subjects: Gaza conflict, Labor’s shameful inaction on anti-Semitism, protecting Australians from crime, Ukraine, Labor’s failure to manage the US relationship successfully
E&OE…
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Well to talk about these issues and some domestic ones too, let’s bring in the Shadow Foreign Minister David Coleman. David Coleman, welcome to the program.
DAVID COLEMAN: Good afternoon, Patricia.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: There has been a resumption of hostilities in Gaza. In your view is the war now back on?
DAVID COLEMAN: Well, look, nobody wants to see conflict in the Middle East. No one wants to see conflict in Gaza. And we obviously have great empathy for the innocent victims. The issue is, Patricia, that Hamas is holding hostages. Hamas must release those hostages. It had an offer to do so from the United States, which it rejected. And it continues. It’s barbaric behaviour and it needs to return those hostages and that’s the way to get the ceasefire back in place.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: You talk about those hostages, but it’s actually the families of hostages in Gaza that say they’re terrified. They won’t return because of these attacks. So the hostage families themselves don’t see it as a useful or positive contribution to reuniting with their loved ones.
DAVID COLEMAN: Yeah, the hostage families are in the most horrible of situations and it’s almost impossible to conceive of the pain that they’re going through. But the bottom line here Patricia is Hamas committed mass murder against Israel. They killed more than a thousand people. They want conflict. They want people to die. And they can resolve this conflict by returning the hostages. They should have done so – they should never have been taken but they should have been returned a long time ago and that’s what needs to happen and Hamas could do that tomorrow, but they don’t want to because they want this conflict to continue and that is evil.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: The strikes killed mostly women and children does that concern you?
DAVID COLEMAN: Of course any time when innocent people are killed, Patricia, it’s very concerning and obviously we all, our heart goes out to any innocent victims in any conflict, but again, why is the conflict occurring? The conflict is occurring because Hamas committed mass murder, because Hamas has not returned the hostages and because Hamas wants conflict to continue and wants to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. That’s the reality. And so Hamas can stop the conflict by returning the hostages, and that’s what needs to happen. And they’re refusing to do that and that needs to change.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: You say Hamas wants to continue the conflict. We’ve heard some pretty alarming things that have come out of the ministers in the Israeli Cabinet as well. It seems that some people want the conflict to continue from the Israeli side as well.
DAVID COLEMAN: Well I think what people in Israel understandably want is their hostages returned and they also don’t want a situation where Hamas can walk into Israel and kill innocent people and do so deliberately as an actual strategy to walk into another country and murder as many people as you possibly can. That is the definition of evil. That is what Israel has had to deal with. and Hamas continues to hold those hostages. We’ve seen those barbaric handovers of hostages, including the coffins of children, Patricia, which I think shocked the world in terms of the barbarity of Hamas. And what Hamas needs to do now is get those hostages back to their families.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Are you concerned that the resumption of the conflict will lead to more social disharmony and inflamed domestic tensions here in Australia?
DAVID COLEMAN: Look, I think there’s obviously a lot of people in Australia who are concerned about the conflict and that’s understandable, but again, why is the conflict happening? It’s happening because Hamas killed more than a thousand Israelis, because Hamas continues to hold the hostages and that has to stop, they have to be returned and that’s where the focus needs to be, Patricia, on the evil of Hamas and the capacity for Hamas to get the ceasefire recommenced by returning those hostages.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: David Coleman, I want to change the topic and just talk a few domestic issues if we can. Have Coalition MPs been told to pour cold water on the prospect of a referendum to allow Ministers to deport dual nationals?
DAVID COLEMAN: Look, Patricia, I think on this issue, let’s strip this issue back to its essence. Peter Dutton has a very strong track record of standing up and protecting Australians. He cancelled more than 6,000 visas when in Government. Why did he do that? Because he’s incredibly focused on the safety of our community, the safety of families and the safety of children. That’s a good thing. Now, some people might not like that. I think it’s a good thing. And so what Peter is saying is, of course, we need to look at all options and if we’ve got situations where people are committing acts of terror or where people are committing acts of violence against children or acts of exploitation of children, he’s saying all options have to be on the table and we’ll review those in Government.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Shouldn’t we know now, because we know what the High Court thinks, we already know that it’s actually crystal clear. So given we do know that, will you commit to a referendum if you’re elected in the next term?
DAVID COLEMAN: What we’re saying, Patricia, is we’ll look very carefully at the operation of all laws and how effective they are in defending Australians. Why wouldn’t we do that? We will do that. And we will lean forward in protecting the Australian community. That’s what Peter Dutton has always done. And he’s often been criticised by the left of politics for doing so, but he doesn’t care because it’s the right thing to do.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: So is having a referendum in your next term the right thing to do?
DAVID COLEMAN: Well, Patricia, as I said, we’ll look at all the entire situation, the effectiveness or otherwise of our law.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: But don’t we already know, because as I say, the High Court has been clear, so we already know, so it’s either you think there should be a referendum or you don’t.
DAVID COLEMAN: Well, again, Patricia, we’ll review the situation in Government, but we won’t shy away from taking strong action to defend Australians, whether it’s from terrorists, from people who are committing acts of violence against our children, or other forms of despicable crime. And to be frank, Patricia, I think most people in the Australian community would want their Government to do that. We’ve got a Labor Government that has released people from detention in large numbers, that has had a lax approach to border security, that won’t do anything about things like people publishing videos online celebrating their crimes. Labor thinks there’s no need for any law to deal with that. Very weak on crime. And we have a different view.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Today’s talking points that have been published, you can see them on the ABC website right now, they reiterate that there’s no plans to hold a referendum. So is that the position?
DAVID COLEMAN: Well Patricia, as I said, we’ll review the situation after we come into Government and as Peter Dutton has said today, we’ll take the action that we think is necessary.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: So after reviewing it, sorry I just want to nail down the detail because I think people are entitled to know, like genuinely entitled to know. You’d review it, you’d make a judgement if you think it’s necessary to go to a referendum and then would you take that to another election? Is that like a second term proposition then in terms of when we would go to a national vote?
DAVID COLEMAN: Yeah, Patricia, I think I’ve addressed your question on multiple occasions. We will review the situation. We won’t hesitate to take strong action to protect Australians as we’ve done in the past. And that’s what we’ll do.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Do you support your colleague’s idea, I think Dan Tehan, the Shadow Immigration spokesperson, put out the idea, that there should be a question about anti-Semitism on the Citizenship test.
DAVID COLEMAN: Yeah, I think that’s a very appropriate proposal, Patricia. We’ve seen horrible acts of violence against the Jewish community. Just outside my own electorate, we saw a synagogue defaced with references to Hitler and swastikas. And we’ve seen even worse conduct in other places, such as the Adass Synagogue in Melbourne. And so that fundamental value of religious tolerance, it’s really, it’s who we are as a country. And so if people aren’t willing to sign up to that or to accept that, why should they become citizens? So yes, I think that’s very reasonable.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Would you broaden it out? Would there be a question about tolerance of other religions?
DAVID COLEMAN: Yeah, look I think the general point about tolerance is very important and what Dan has announced today is in relation to anti-Semitism where we have seen very clear evidence of a very significant problem, which of course started on October the 9th for the Opera House and the Government’s response to that was to do absolutely nothing. So that is the announcement that Dan has made today. But the broader point that you’re making, Patricia, that tolerance of all faiths, tolerance of people of all backgrounds, absolutely, I mean that’s, that’s who we are as a country and that pluralism, that fact that you can worship any, any god you want or no god at all, that’s a big part of who we are. We must always protect that, we must always defend that and we must always stand up to defend that right.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: So, to be clear, you think that it should be broader than just anti-Semitism? In the Citizenship test, should it ask about Islamophobia, for instance? Should it be broader that way?
DAVID COLEMAN: Well, as Patricia, as I said, the announcement that’s been made today is in relation to anti-Semitism, but of course, all forms of discrimination are completely inappropriate.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: So would the Citizenship test, and I’m labouring the point, but that’s what I do here, you know that. It’s literally my job. Would the Citizenship test also ask about, I don’t know, homophobia for instance, I mean we also we have a thriving gay lesbian population in Australia to ensure people don’t have homophobic views. Is that the sort of thing you’d also ask about?
DAVID COLEMAN: Well, again, Patricia, the announcements about anti-Semitism today, we’ve seen an incredibly serious problem with anti-Semitism in recent months. We’ve never seen anything like it in our country, certainly in my lifetime, and so we’ve made a very clear announcement on that. The broader point you make about tolerance, I completely agree. Tolerance is very important. It’s part of who we are. And the announcement we’re making today is focused on anti-Semitism and ensuring that people who come to our country understand the importance of that issue.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay, but you broadly are in favour of a broader test yourself?
DAVID COLEMAN: Patricia, again, I’ve answered your question on multiple occasions. The proposal for the test is in relation to anti-Semitism. I support that. And of course, discrimination of any form is unacceptable.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Russia has said they’ll pause attacking energy infrastructure in Ukraine. Isn’t this a sort of meaningless, given we’re seeing, right now, I think bombs are actually going off in Russia, sorry, in Ukraine. There are reports right now that there’s no cessation of fighting. Is it really meaningful what we’re seeing come out of these talks?
DAVID COLEMAN: It’s a very fair question, Patricia, and look, the words of Vladimir Putin should be treated with the greatest degree of scepticism. He never keeps agreements, and he is a dictator who’s been responsible for the death of many thousands of people. So, treat everything he says with the world’s largest grain of salt. I mean, if you’re in Pokrovsk, you’re in Toretsk, you’re in Chasiv Yar at the moment and you’re getting pounded by Russian drones, by Russian missiles, you certainly don’t feel any benefit from what has been said about energy infrastructure and of course the attacks on energy infrastructure tend to be somewhat sporadic in nature. So I think we should be very sceptical about anything that President Putin says frankly. And that’s important, Patricia, because if we do get to a ceasefire, and hopefully we do, we need to be very sceptical about Vladimir Putin sticking to the terms of any ceasefire. And that’s very significant when you’ve got a Prime Minister who is proposing to put Australian troops in harm’s way, close to what would be whatever was the frozen front line of that conflict. So yes, we should be very sceptical about things that President Putin says.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Just a final question on another topic that’s just breaking. American medical giants have attacked the $18 billion Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme in a plea to the US President Donald Trump to impose punitive tariffs on Australia because we subsidised medicines. Now this has been something that both sides of politics have been committed to. What is your commitment to defending the PBS and not negotiating on any level with the Trump administration on this.
DAVID COLEMAN: Well of course we fully support the PBS, it’s been a very good thing for our country. The task for the Government is to make sure in this feared second round of tariffs, that things like the PBS, things like the beef industry and other issues aren’t affected. We want the Government to succeed and clearly the US Administration is focused on introducing more tariffs. We don’t want that to happen. The issue we’ve got is we’ve got compromised advocates on the part of the Government. We’ve got a Prime Minister who’s obviously made disparaging comments about the President, as has the Foreign Minister, as has our Ambassador in the United States. We want them to succeed. We certainly support their efforts in doing so. And regardless of the fact that we’re all very much in agreement, that we’re strongly opposed to these tariff proposals, we have to deal with the world as it is, not as we would like it to be. And our task is to do the best possible job in these negotiations. And unfortunately to date, it hasn’t been successful, but hopefully it will be in the future.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: David Coleman, thank you for joining us.
DAVID COLEMAN: Thanks, Patricia.
The Hon. David Coleman MP
Shadow Minister for Foreign Affairs
Federal Member for Banks